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TRANSCRIPT

Uptempo dance song under a voiceover: Anyone for tennis? You’re with Demetra Giannakopoulos on Hit Me Up on JOY 94.9.

Host Demetra Giannakopoulos (DG): Our special guest today is Rowen D’Souza, who is the CEO and president of the GLTA, which is a worldwide LGBTIQA+ tennis organization. And Rowen is also the founder of the Glam Slam, which is played at the Australian Open each year. Rowen, welcome to Hit Me Up.

Guest Rowen D’Souza (RD): Oh, it’s great to be here. Thank you for hitting me up.

DG: (laughter) Any time. Now Rowen tell us about the GLTA. What do they do? Who are they?

RD: So the GLTA is a worldwide organization made up of nearly 100 LGBTQIA+ run tennis clubs around the world. And our function and our rationale is to organize events for LGBTIQA+ community around the world to play tennis. So it’s a very simple thing that brings people together using the glue of tennis, but creates social networks and people get to make friends, and people get to experience the joy of a sport in an environment that is tailored to our community.

So the rainbow community plays sport just like everyone else, and it’s really nice that we give them that opportunity to do so. Whether it be in countries where it’s very much legal and very much accepted, or even countries where it’s maybe a little bit hidden still, or it’s new or it’s different. The GLTA aims to bring people together through tennis.

DG: Tennis or sport is a competitive endeavor and I like to compete, but also the thing I love and I’m, I’m, I’m talking about tennis because that’s my sport. But I’m sure it’s the same for every other sport that the community of the sport whether you’re in a club or you turn up in a tournament.

How does that fit in with the GLTA? And is that something that is part and parcel of the GLTA, or do you have to, you know, constantly have a conversation about that with people who turn up for the tournament?

RD: The clubs actually form the voting members of the GLTA. So there are like a there are foundation and what it what was there were actually clubs, LGBTI people playing tennis and they organize themselves into clubs and then they’ve organized themselves further. The beautiful thing about GLTA events is no matter where you go in the world with one of the events that we sanction, there’s going to be a level of consistency.

We have a, we have a ranking system. We have a set of rules and bylaws. We have a set of norms that we have. So, you know, Iif you travel to America, if you travel to Japan, having a new tournament in Japan in March, if you travel to Majorca, if you travel to Oslo, if you travel to these places, you as an LGBTI person, if you are by yourself, you can actually know you’re going to find community because you have that foundation of the tournament.

So the tennis is the thing that grounds us and the clubs have started, you know, organizing these amazing events around the world. And then other, you know, smaller groups organize that as well. But I think it’s something that it’s it’s about connecting us all up. It’s creating a network that we can find a safe space wherever we go.

DG: How does it work? Is it like search a website to find like when tournaments are on?

RD: So I website, the GLTA.net has a list of all our tournaments, plus all the information about new events, existing events. You know it’s a it’s a it’s a website where we promote, the efforts of clubs around the world. Plus we have the tournament software where you can enter the the tournament itself. And it’s a great way.

And I know people watch this website very closely because anytime there’s a change, you know, we get messages and all this is exciting. [Okay.] Tell me more about this. So I know that there is a real hunger for, opportunities out there in our community. When we look at the Glam Slam, which we just opened a couple of weeks ago, we had over 200 players in the first two minutes entering our event.

We have more women than ever who have entered on the day of entry, and most of our events were full in 90 seconds. So what this says to me is that our community is really keen not just to go to pride with flags  you know, those celebrations are but also participate and also compete in tennis. So, you know, it’s giving us this added element for engagement for our community, which is amazing, which is the thing that inspires me the most.

DG: Something that, you know, I really want to explore with, Hit Me Up is the community of tennis around the world, in the LGBTIQA+ community. And it’s like, you know, it’s communities within communities, isn’t it? And does the GLTA, interact with country bodies that, you know, I mean, beyond just the LGBTIQA community and what are those interactions like?

RD: Well, one of the main things that the GLTA really needs to do as an overall organization is to actually engage with the community on a wider scale. So our clubs don’t necessarily do that, particularly in countries where it’s still illegal, where, you know, there are countries where, it’s jailable and worse to be a part of our community.

But the GLTA overall is about engaging with the community because, I mean, were you there last year, you and I watched that. We at the event where we watched the wheelchair tennis? [YES] Was that you? That’s you know, that’s a great example about how diversity changes tennis.

DG: But the Australian Open is, you know, it’s so wonderful. It has, wheelchair tennis. And I think blind tennis as well, which is, super.

RD: So I’m going to use this example. People in wheelchairs were very much excluded from society for a whole range of reasons. Then when we came out to play tennis, people were playing tennis. And the game is developed to such a level that now when we watch, we think, this is amazing. I didn’t realize that the people in wheelchairs could play tennis.

Now, when you watch the wheelchair game, it’s a modified version of tennis, but it’s awesome. Absolutely awesome. So it gives you a different view of this community. And that’s the same thing with that community as well. A lot of people have a very fixed view of our community. But then, you know, when they see us play tennis, when they see us, engage in all sorts of elements of life.

It’s another way in which we grow our community. We foster what our community should be. We don’t need more division. We don’t need more people in little pockets and hiding away what we need is we need everyone to interact with each other and celebrate each other. And that’s what we’re trying to do, with tennis and certainly the national bodies.

Tennis Australia is a little bit ahead of the other bodies. Not because, I think it’s just because – the will is there and we get access at the Australian Open like it’s the only event, in the world where you play a tournament at a, at a Grand Slam and, you know, we get courts at a Grand Slam. So, you know, there are allocated courts for us and our community and they’re not easy to get.

So the international organizations, we have to engage with them. And the ones who, see our value will be including us because that’s part of community. We are part of community. You can you can’t deny that.

DG: Now let’s talk about, inclusive of all genders, because tennis is very gendered sport. But I say that with a qualification that we have had mixed doubles since the beginning of tennis, which has always been an opportunity of all of us playing together, literally. Yeah.

RD: Yeah, absolutely.

DG: How does the GLTA or your experience of the tournament set form part of the GLTA tour embrace gender diversity in the events and how is that dealt with?

RD: Well, one thing, before I answer that with tennis, I always remind people yes to mixed doubles. Absolutely. Also, women actually having, playing, tennis is it goes back a long, long way as well, like AFL(W) only started a few years ago. Also, we do have experience with, trans inclusion at tennis. So there was a player in the 70s who was, and I’m using this example as an inclusive example. There was a player called Renee Richards who, you know, went to the courts and was allowed to play as a trans woman in at the US open. And played a number of times, in fact tennis, has had this experience tennis is it’s one of those sports with excellent examples of inclusion and it’s actually fantastic what we do.

Sport is very gendered because that’s how it was set up. Organizations such as the GLTA pushing to make it less gendered or to find better nuances and to find better ways of actually, involving people who can play, who are, gender diverse. So in the GLTA, of course, we started off with men’s and women’s divisions as well. And the women’s divisions are always, have always unfortunately been smaller because participation of women does lag behind the participation of men. So what we decided to do, in the last couple of years, is actually change the name of our men’s division. We get rid of the men’s divisions and what we’ve called that is all gender. So no matter what gender you are, you can play in these divisions.

So everyone can play in the division. Now because women are underrepresented in sport. We felt it was very important that we that we have a space for women to play, and we we create an environment where women, still have their space. So women’s divisions, we still have. So at the Glam Slam what you’ll see is an all gender event. And that’s for everyone that singles doubles. And we have grades open today. And then you’ll also see the women’s events as well. And this is, this is a way in which we increase women’s participation. It’s working. We had more women enter on the day of registration than we’ve ever had before. And I think we’ll have we’ll have the biggest number of women’s events.

We always make sure that women are represented our final size. So we have the open singles final of the women’s event and also the open singles final of the all gendered events as well. We have. I don’t know if people noticed this, but next time look at the Glam Slam cups for the women’s ones bigger.  We did that deliberately.

DG: Good.

RD: We did that deliberately.  It’s the case. And I do see people go towards the bigger cup, but I’m like, oh, that’s the women’s.

DG: Oh that’s the amazing.

RD: Yeah, it’s a little it’s a little bit. It’s just, you know, to stir things up a little bit. But that’s something I find very.

Yeah I think it’s important. You know, we need to try and think of as many people as possible. We need to include as many people as possible. So I think this is a neat solution. And it’s something we’ve rolled out worldwide. There are restrictions in the software, the software that all people use. [indistinct] is gendered and they won’t change the gender identification just yet.

Tennis Australia is working on it. I know there are moves behind the saying that let them take their time, but it’s been six years now, but there are moves ahead to to allow greater gender identification. At the moment it’s only male or female, which, you know, it’s we are trying very hard to get that changed, but we are trying to get more people to play.

DG: I’m impressed that you’re calling that out. And to raise that yourself without being sort of raised by someone else because it’s these sort of intricate parts of experience with the world. Do I say microaggressions? If you experienced microaggressions throughout your day about gender, you know, and even that the question because I’m a she/her but I do notice if there are options for different genders, because that would indicate to me an organization that’s turning its mind to it because, you know, you want to be I want to live in an inclusive world, particularly now, where that’s really being challenged.

RD: The sad thing for us is that we have no option but to use the software. The software is exclusionary. And I want people, gender diverse people, to know that this is something we’ve been working very hard since 2018, since the Paris Gay Games, in fact, we’ve been, we’ve been advocating for the software people to change that.

Now, I don’t want to go into battle with them. They’re our partners. They have a limited view. You know, I don’t hate them, but they need to change. And we are doing what we can. And I do feel for them when they’re only offered the male and female, because that is a microaggression, that is saying you don’t belong.

I don’t want that to be the case. And if anyone does have that question, please message us. And we do get that every now and then. But we are working on it because sport is very gendered and unfortunately does take time to change. I’d love it for it to change already. It will change. But yes, you’re right, I’m putting it as a microaggression is actually a good way to. I think that’s calling it that for what it is.

DG: Coming back to details of entering. So how do you work out what level you are with the different grades?

RD: Okay. So that this is a this is a (laughter) really complicated matter. If you are having trouble with your division, the place that we have open, which is the highest level, you know, anyone can play in that level, but it’s not it’s the greatest expertise. But when you have D, it’s beginners and C is sort of intermediate beginners, Bs is more intermediate and A is high intermediate.

The reason we have the divisions is because the grammar time is very different to and LGBTI tournaments around the world are very different to sport traditionally. Another problem, exclusion problem with sport is that it’s elitist. [Yes.] So the Glam Slam is the only event at the Australian Open. It’s not just for the elites, it’s if you can pick up a racquet and you can play, you could be playing at the Australian Open, which is a unique opportunity during the Australian. In a couple of week’s time, you can literally pick up a racket a day before you enter, two days before the tournament starts. And you could be playing at the Australian Open. So we have people who are beginners and they’re included. We have people who are learning and progressing with their tennis journey.

They’re included the Australian Open. I think that’s actually quite a unique thing, but it’s also breaking down that barriers of people saying, this is what I hear all the time, I’m not good enough to play. Oh, I don’t have the skills. You don’t have to be good. It’s about joining,   it’s about joining in. It’s about competing. It’s about having fun with people. And I like to see the different divisions mix.

I like to see people of different skill sets. I’m trying really hard. It’s all the same effort. Right? Like if you just pick up a so take the same amount of effort. So you know, Roger Federer, it’s the it’s the same. I think it’s a really unique opportunity that we’re giving people. And that’s something I’m very proud of.

DG: How do you interact with your tennis because you still play. You still play quite a lot. Why do you play tennis? I’ll simplify the question why do you play tennis, Rowen? For a very complex answer probably.

RD: No, no, I think that’s a very good question to ask is why do we play tennis? And I think the problem with that, the answering of that question is that our the elite nature of sport and professional sport, I think that actually, almost ruins, it could ruin the professionalism, can ruin tennis altogether. I think a lot of people will look at the professionals play and I can’t do that, so I can’t play.

I play tennis because I love it. And I love the feeling of on court, and I love just even how the ball travels through the air. It sounds weird, but when you see a shot that has beautiful shape, I get really excited, I love playing tennis. No, I’m not necessarily a competitive person. But I just love playing tennis.

And I love the sport. I think the the elite stuff does sort of actually exclude people. So, and it also, you know, I think I see this a lot with people and I’ve had this with myself is when I’m in a competitive environment, I get very down on myself because I get like I’m not good enough. Like and which is really weird.

And I think that’s one another thing with elite sport and tennis should be about winning. It’s not about winning, it’s not about being good. But that’s how we frame it. That’s what we get so down on ourselves, tennis is about just being there and having fun. I always stop myself and I, this is a little quirk I have wherever I’m playing around the world, and I’m very privileged and I’m very lucky to be able to do this.

I will stop and say, I’m playing tennis in Portugal. I’m playing tennis, you know, in in on the grass at Wimbledon. Now I get to play at the Australian Open. You know, I think we need to stop and think of the, the, the privilege and the it’s just incredible opportunities we have as opposed to making it too competitive like, you know, compete. But don’t that’s whether you win or not. It’s not the most important thing. I love it because it’s a beautiful game. It gives me an opportunity to connect with some amazing people and have some amazing opportunities. It gives you something to do as well. It keeps me occupied, which I need to be.

DG: With the GLTA what’s ahead? Like, what are some big picture goals for the GLTA moving forward yeah?

RD: There’s been massive growth up in the GLTA over the last two years, and I took over from a long serving president. So there’s an opportunity for, you know, at the changing of the guard. And also great. Plus, we were coming out of a pandemic, which suspended a lot of our events around the world. And it’s a time of great growth.

And so one of the things that that I’m very much focused on is managing that growth. So I really enjoy working with new groups, and I’ve dealt with quite a number in the last two years. As I mentioned before, Tokyo is coming on board and that’s a very interesting one. We have new tournaments in Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, Majorca, in the States, there’s been a number of new tournaments as well. [Railey] in South Carolina or North Carolina, one of the two, you know, just really amazing events. And so I think where to for the GLTA is this, this managed growth. And certainly I’m hoping there are tournaments, for example, in Africa, would be fantastic. Africa is an interesting continent. It’s not. We talk about Africa is one continent, but there’s there’s many different elements to it. More tournaments in Asia would be fantastic given the restraints, both cultural and legal, restraints in, you know, around the world. So I think the GLTA is about managed growth. It’s about getting more opportunities for people to play. Because here’s the thing.

Every time we put on a new tournament, they are filling. Now people are playing. People, we have more of a problem with waitlists than we do with, you know, empty tournaments with, with not enough people participating. We have more women’s events now. We have more women’s draws now. So it’s all about growth. It’s all about growth.

I’d love to get to a point where we can have separate gender diverse draws, if that’s necessary. I don’t know if people want, but let’s get to a point where if people say this is necessary, let’s get to a point where we have engaged and met as many enough gender diverse people to actually, you know, to make that viable.

There are a lot of volunteers, a very volunteer organization. I’m a volunteer as well, so there’s a lot of volunteers who are putting a huge amount of effort to to bring these opportunities to our community. So where the GLTA needs to go is to, to continue this, this growth, to give opportunities for people to play in some awesome events and meet some awesome people, around the world.

DG: Well, wonderful. I’m going to sort of come back to how you talked about the, events and the you had an all genders event in the in the Glam Slam for 2025 and a women’s separate draw. Is that the first time that’s been done for a GLTA tournament?

RD: No, I have had no agenda for the last couple of years. We’ve been introducing that, over the last couple of years and, you know, and just providing the rationale for that. And so I very much think that we need to move forward with consensus. I know that’s sometimes a bad word in our society is all about, you know, but consensus is really important.

So I really feel from a board level and from an organizational level, we all move forward with consensus. We all understand why, and we all agree. We all recognize that there are some things we have to change. But the reason we have brought in more gender is because we can expand the people that we say are welcome. So it’s not the first time, but it’s something that I emphasize with all the events. And diversity and inclusion means different things in different countries. So for example, if you’re on the Balkan states, we had a tournament in Belgrade a few years ago when I was looking over their budget their second biggest expense was security. So what they had to do was they had to, had to have security guards at the, at the entrances because they didn’t want, like, you know, protesters because that happened to could happen.

What happens is these groups in the Balkans and they target LGBTI stuff. So they have their flag budget was way down because I didn’t display any black. So with the money they saved on flags, they put it to secure.

[laughing]

DG: I’m laughing. I’m laughing ironically.

RD: Oh that’s it. It’s a very ironically it’s very ironic because I’m like, security, why do you need security? So for being diversity, inclusion is really just being about to play. So you’re not necessarily at the stage where they considering, you know gender diversity. They’re just making sure they survive. And that’s that needs to be supported. Until that gets to a point where they can start thinking about that.

But then the GLTA says, okay, but all our events are all gender. So for those people who aren’t necessarily thinking about gender diversity, they think about security and making sure that the right wing mob doesn’t attack their players, which can happen. But then at least that’s then that consistency. There is something that is on the radar and that gives them that scope to grow.

So I think that’s very, very important because it is different around the world. And I think there is some, for example, and I think I’ve said this to you before the GLTA can’t hold an event in Singapore because Singapore, though, it’s a democracy and it’s a country which we can all travel to. It still has colonial era laws on the, the, the statutes that would make the GLTA a foreign organization promoting homosexuality.

And that’s also culturally, people will lose their jobs if they are found that to be gay often. And that still happens. Let’s be realistic about it. That’s what happens. It’s not a criticism of anyone but that’ll happen because people are people. I’m not saying this is the government or any of that, but you know, it’ll happen. So we can’t have an event in Singapore, for example, at the moment, because now we need a local group to organize it.

Let’s hope that happens in the future. But at the moment it’s illegal we would like, the GLTA can’t function in that because we’ll be classed a foreign organization promoting homosexuality, and we carted off to jail.

DG: Is yeah, I mean, it is it is ironic. And and we come back to this separation between elite sports and grassroots community. Everybody else playing those sports at the elite sports, you know, rely on fans, etc. A lot of elite sports. And I, you know, mention that, you know, the WTA, I was in Saudi Arabia recently and like, there’s this sort of disconnect between or maybe not an understanding that there are countries where there have been, WTA or ATP tournament played where the everyday members of our community could, could get carted off to jail to play, you know, if they identified as LGBTIQ whilst they’re playing tennis, if I can put it that way.

DG: To wrap up this chat, is there anything else that you’d like to talk about regarding the GLTA or tennis as a community, or whatever else that comes to mind?

RD: Because it’s JOY. I always would like to encourage, any gender diverse and women out there to come and join us at the Glam Slam. It really is a unique event. And, if you want to play tennis and if you are tennis tragic like me and Demetra, but you don’t think that, you know, you didn’t realize that this was there. You don’t think there’s an opportunity for you to play, just get in touch, with us, and, we we know we can facilitate your entry into the Glam Slam. Or if you’re not, if you’re a tennis tragic, but you don’t play tennis, which they exist as well. Come and join us on the 26th, of January. So we’ll be, having our Glam Slam finals at court six, which was the, the court with the the bar that goes right up to the court.

DG: Oooh The party court!

RD: The party court. And that’s where we belong. It’s interesting because we were in we were in the sunken stadium, and that’s that spot that some people. And I was like, are you okay going to this court? I’m like, yes, because this is better for us. It’s it’s got the two bars, it’s got the viewing areas. It’s more of a party atmosphere.

It’s not your traditional – you’re sitting and your head’s moving. Right. We do have that on one side. If you if you’re a traditional and you want to sit with your head bobbing side to side to watch amazing matches, great. You can do that. But also you can join us at the bar. So it’s court six of the Australian Open on the 26th.

Look out for the Glam Slam tickets, on the website to come and join us. If you want to play, you can join us. For gender diverse and women particularly. We want to get more women playing. We want, you know, we want women to play. So there are women’s draws. We have quotas for women’s. All the all gender, drawers are full.

But we do have space for women. And we will keep those spaces open for as long as we’ve created a safe space for you to what you can get all the time you want, until the registration closes a week before the event to come and join us. But if you want to join us, join us at the Australian Open.

The Glam Slam is unique. That doesn’t happen anywhere else in the world. And you know, Melbourne is a world leader in so much, and the Glam Slam is one of those things as well. So please come and join us at the Glam Slam this year.

DG: If someone wants to find out more about the Glam Slam and particularly entering, what’s the website to do that?

RD: So the website you go to is tennis.com/ao-glam-slam.

DG: Fantastic Rowen, thank you so much for joining us on Hit Me Up.

RD: It was great to be hitted it up.

[laughter]

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Gaybledon Championship Tour

“morewomen@GLTAtournaments”

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Host: Demetra Giannakopoulos (DG):   We have a very special guest on Hit Me Up! We have an international guest and her name is Karolina Czyż and Karolina is from Poland. Absolutely loves her tennis. Karolina welcome to Hit me Up on Joy 94.9.

Guest:   Karolina Czyż (KC): Hello. Hello, everybody. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, my name is Karolina Czyż and I live in Warsaw, the capital of Poland. I was born here in 1977. I was attending, tennis academy, as a kid being eight and 13 years old, and then stopped playing and returned to tennis in 2021. So having 44 years.

So I had, around 30 years of break, and I was studying psychology. But I work, for a corporation in financial reporting.

DG:   Why we’re talking to you is because you are really getting involved in encouraging people to take part in the GLTA tour. So, what tournaments have you played in the GLTA tour?

KC:   I played already, ten GLTA tournaments. My first one, was in Poland in June 2023. It was in Poznan Summer vibes. That’s the name of the tournament. AND last one, was in August this year in Zurich in Switzerland. And on my first, tournament in Poznan, I played together with guys because there were not enough woman to create a separate woman draws.

And I came there with my rainbow tennis friends from my hometown Warsaw. And she took her wife and a dog, and I took my girlfriend, and we all came very curious to check how is it to play on the biggest rainbow tour in the world with all these guys from abroad? Is it all worth so much money to pay?

And turns out the atmosphere was great. Guys were very welcoming. It was super funny. And finally, I could feel it’s my kind of space where I can fully relax and meet others from my favourite rainbow and tennis bubbles. And it was really worth every dollar spent there. I admit, that before, I never paid so much for any tennis tournament.

As usually I played only on our tournaments in my hometown, which, costs, like, 1 or 2 [word]. So that was, something a big leap for me. It was really great.

DG:   Tell us which tournaments you’ve play because you’ve played quite a lot of tournaments.

KC:   Yeah. So all of them were, were in Europe because of the costs. And I’ve chosen the ones, where I could play in separate woman draws. Okay. Because we have tournaments, like, almost every weekend, I think. But, not all of them offer separate draws for woman. Last year, in 2023, when I started with GLTA, there were three tournaments, two of them in Poland, because I decided I would play in every tournament in Poland.

That was Poznan Summer Vibes and in Katowice.

DG:   That’s a great name for a tournament, summer vibes. So in Australia we’re just coming into summer and we’re starting to feel the summer vibes.

KC:   Yeah. And I can tell you that guys, created even a song. Summer Vibes. So we, had, our own, anthem for, for this particular tournament because of artificial intelligence. Now you can just ask it to create a song, you know, from over give, tennis, LGBT, summer vibes and so on. So we had this song playing all the time during the tournament.

It was really nice. Guys are very creative.

DG:   Oh, that is fantastic, I love it.

KC:   And, first tournament, last, last year was in Bern in Switzerland. That was my first tournament abroad. That was Euro games. So European Championships. And this year I decided that I will take part in as many as possible. I will set seven tournaments. So first I started with the biggest lesbian tournament in Netherlands, in Amstelveen, Dutch lesbian open.

Yeah. Then the second one only for, lesbians it was in Spain on Gran Canaria. Woman. Sunshine Open Gran Canaria. Later I visited Amsterdam in Netherlands on the oldest, LGBT tournament in Europe, Pinkster. Later I came again to Poznan Summer Vibes. Then I went to Eurogames in Vienna, Austria. Later to London. In the UK to play on the grass. My first, no, my second time playing on grass, because in Poland it’s not popular. Yeah. Yeah. Playing on grass on Wimbledon related courts. It was something very special.

DG:   Oh, how amazing was that? The practise courts for Wimbledon?

KC:   Yeah, I and I think some, matches, normal matches also were played over there.

DG:   How incredible . How did you find playing on grass? Because in Poland. Is it is it clay in Poland?

KC:   Yeah. Mostly we use clay. We have like maybe two venues in Poland. We have grass. It’s very rare. Yes. Very expensive. And I think playing on grass is really special. I like it, it’s so.

Quiet. Soft.

DG:   Compared to, compared to clay. It’s very quick.

KC:   Yeah, it’s also.

Quick but I like it. It. Well yeah. If I could choose I would play on grass most time.

DG:   That’s amazing because Iga Światek of course Polish champion, amazing player, hates grass.

KC:   Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. But hopefully someday she will gain something.

DG:   Let’s see. Yeah.

KC:   So after, grass in London, my last was in Zurich on clay.

DG:   Wonderful. And, so I’m in the GLTA is the Rainbow Tour, world tour. How did you find out about it?

KC:   Maybe I give you a longer story here. Interesting for everybody. When I restarted playing tennis after my very long break, I signed up to play, matches in the biggest amateur tennis league in Warsaw. And then I decided to wear, rainbow sweatbands on my head, on my, hands and head, because I wanted to normalize the fact that LGBT people are, all around.

And I wanted to let, my opponents or double partners know that they play with a lesbian. Because I believed in the power of social campaigns. And we had such campaign, run by our LGBT organization here in Poland under the name. “Let them see us.”

DG:   Wow. That’s powerful.

KC:   Yeah. There were posters all around, the town with, queer persons holding hands. So all the passers by, can see that we exist, and we look like normal people.

DG:   (laughter) And what? We’re normal? We’re actually normal?

KC:   And not some monster or clowns. Yeah.

So I wanted to do the same on the tennis courts and, in, 2022, I met, a pair of girls, on the court who started chatting with me about this rainbow sweatbands and they told me that they have a friend who is traveling around Europe, and he’s playing on GLTA tournaments. That’s the first time I heard about GLTA.

And I asked, them, to meet him so he can tell me everything about it. And, talking with him, I learned that, unfortunately, are very, little women, not too many women playing, and that costs are very high comparing to the average Polish salary. So when I decided that, okay, I will just focus on finding other woman rainbow players here in Poland, and I will try to gather them and organize rainbow tournaments here.

And I kind of forgot about all this GLTA and I set up a Facebook page for Polish Rainbow Players and started advertising, our group within our Polish tennis community and, very soon, one club suddenly offered to host Rainbow Tournament in Warsaw. And to be honest, it was the first time ever that it was propositioned to have open, public, LGBT tournaments.

DG:   Amazing. That’s amazing. Karolina. That’s incredible

KC:   because we had before such tournaments, but they were like, hidden. You know, we were telling just friends to friends. No. Public advertisement, it’s rainbow or LGBT. So guys were hiding, for their own safety, right?

DG:   So, yeah, I mean, this has been the situation in Australia as well in the past, for sure.

KC:   Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think we all can understand. Yeah. Why and how it is.

So I was super excited that suddenly one club is happy to give space, for openly LGBT tournaments and is not afraid of any repercussions. And we started to organize it. And in the meantime, some other, colleague who also was playing on GLTA tour, he posted on, my group an article from GLTA website about first tournament for lesbians taking place in Amstelveen, the Dutch Lesbian Open.

Yeah. And of course, I immediately, read the article, and I, stirred and, and the photo in this article, there was a bunch of lesbians. And later I learned it was from Zurich Rainbow Open, from the previous year. And I stared and I immediately knew, I want to join them as soon as possible.

There were so many of them, and I could relate so well, but I was just too shy to to go on my own, knowing nobody. And I calculated all costs involved in going there. And unfortunately, it was very expensive comparing to the costs of playing in any normal tennis tournament in Warsaw.

Because normally we pay just around $25 and we have the whole day of playing with other girls and going to Amsterdam. Mean paying, around $1,000, because all the flight tickets, accommodation, tournaments, players party, local transport, food, drinks, etcetera. So, I didn’t find anybody willing to go there, with me, but I promised to myself that I will go there and next time, I just need to start, slowly. And first, I will play some GLTA tournaments in Poland. So I get to know, people and everything how it’s going before I invest more in some big trip abroad just to play some, some hours of tennis. Right.

DG:   That’s fair enough. And, I’m glad that you’re raising the cost of attending tournaments, especially if they’re, overseas or for Australia, I mean, interstate, it’s kind of the same thing in a way that it is a very expensive to travel by, by plane, interstate and accommodation, etc. all the things that you said. I think that’s an important thing to raise.

I’m not sure we’re going to get into social political issues here now, Karolina or I’m sorry about this.

Yeah, I think I think we’ll in Australia for sure. And I think worldwide women are not paid as much as men. I don’t think there’s maybe in the Scandinavian countries it’s close. But no one’s going to argue that that women get paid the same as men. What that then leads to is exactly this. And that we miss out on being able to easily take part in these really wonderful opportunities. I don’t know if there’s a solution yet or if you have some ideas of a solution, for that.

KC:   Probably no magic solutions. But, what we are thinking about is getting sponsors, for our tournaments and also, having, solidarity funds because some of our tournaments like, Eurogames, Gay Games or this Pinkster the oldest LGBT tournament in Europe, all of them have, solidarity programs. So people just pay some small amounts, small or bigger as they wish, as they can, to special fund.

It’s totally voluntary. Nobody is obliged to do that. And they know that this money, are going to support people, players, fellow players who cannot otherwise afford to come to the tournament. I was using, this kind of help. I’m very grateful for that. And, I’m also happy to, to give some of my money to, to help others.

Because there is a power of, you know, so many people giving small amounts. It’s makes a bigger fund and somebody can use it. And I think it’s worth doing that. And besides, I’m thinking that we should, yeah, get more, sponsors, you know, because generally, as sports should be, it’s okay, it’s sponsored because, you know, governments also sponsor, sports sides and finance it because it’s so good for our health of citizens.

DG:   So, sure

KC:   I’m very supportive. If money for sports, it’s not just, I don’t know, a party for us.

DG:   Well, it’s connection.

KC:   But there is a connection.

Yeah, yeah, sport the physical and mental benefits. But the connection of, I mean, such an important part of being human and being a healthy human is finding community, finding people who we can relate with. And I mean, if we’re whatever our sport is, our sport happens to be tennis and this is what really I love to explore in this show is that, yes, tennis is a sport and has all its aspects of being a sport, but it’s also a way of people connecting with each other and our community our LGBT community is a community there’s not many of us, so any opportunity that we can find others to connect with, I think is a wonderful thing.

KC:   Yes.

DG:   Yeah. I mean you’ve already talked about this where your trying to encourage more Polish LGBTQ people to play tennis. How are you doing that?

KC:   I think the most important is just spreading around information that we exist, that we have rainbow players and we like to play together on, rainbow tournaments. That we would like to combine tennis with socializing. Of course, I know some rainbow players who are not interested at all in any socialising. And I just want to play tennis in, like normal tournaments. It’s okay for me. But also, I know a lot of rainbow players who are so happy that they, got they know somewhere that we exist and they can join, where they are craving for such community. And of course, we need to organize such rainbow tournaments, and make them attractive for people.

I think, when I was younger and such community was existing, then I would certainly come back, much earlier to playing tennis, because I was always looking for lesbian sport groups, to join them for the emotional support, that I needed. So it wasn’t there was no tennis groups like that before I joined what existed. That was football and basketball Queer, groups. So when I finally returned to tennis and, still couldn’t find any such group, I just, you know, decided to to, to create something like that around me. And I was giving, advertisements, all around. So in social media on Pride marches like, on every Pride march, I was going with a big poster on the cardboard, wearing, tennis outfit on every Facebook group for tennis player we have a lot of them in Poland. That’s the, our main, way of communicating with each other. I was giving posts about that. We exist and if you are interested, please join and contact me. Yeah. And this way I I gather people spreading the news.

DG:   Oh, fantastic. A lot of, effort and reaching out to where our community is to tell them about what what you are doing and gathering up all the lesbian tennis players. That’s pretty amazing.

KC:   Yeah.

I also talk with, like owners of the tennis clubs here in Poland, because if I weren’t aware that there is such a group that we, can and want to have a separate tournaments. And I had a lot of, talking, with my tennis community that we really want to have our own space the same way. Like, they, have tournaments, especially for actors or for doctors, for lawyers. It’s normal, for them to have it from years. But we were very surprised that we need LGBT tournaments. So I had to talk with them and now I think it’s became more normal.

DG:   Oh, but that’s very interesting. That’s amazing you directly contacted the clubs. Did you have any sort of written information or it was talking to them?

KC:   Mostly talking yeah, yeah, it’s it’s not.

Nothing formal because I know a lot of them because I play a lot of tennis. You a lot of different clubs. So whenever I can I talk with people.

DG:   You’ve mentioned the amazing named Poznan Summer vibes and that’s on again in 2025. And it’s on late June. Is that correct?

KC:   Right. Yeah.

DG:   Tell us more details about the Poznan Summer vibes 2025 tournament. I’m just imagining lots of music already.

KC:   Yeah, we got some.

DG:    Music special like, you know, some classic, you know, LGBT anthems or something. I don’t know, I’m already mentioning the music, which is great. I love music at a tennis tournament.

But tell us more about the the summer vibes. So, like what? What type of, surface is it on? You know, how big is it etc?

KC:   We can accommodate around 120 players or.

DG:   That’s quite large.

KC:   More. Yeah, because last year we had, around 120 players and, 24 of them were, Woman. Oh, yeah. It was the.

First time ever, that in Poland we had, separate women role on charity tournament.

Yep.

And, we had six of them came from abroad, from UK, Switzerland, Belgium and Germany.

DG:   Oh, fantastic.

KC:   Even more woman wanted to come, but, obviously not everyone had the time or, some had some financial struggles, but generally people from abroad were interested. Hopefully this year we had also we will have also, a lot of players from abroad. And what can I say, we have mostly clay courts, but we have some hard courts too.

Some are under the roof. Most are open. I think the real capacity is 100 even 50 players, because we can spread to to the second venue, too. And what can I say? I can say about summer vibes last year that it was a, life changing event for some of the girls. Because, for example, two of them decided that we finally want to learn English because they want to communicate with other players and they want to go abroad to play.

DG:   Oh my God, that’s amazing.

KC:   Yeah, exactly. So that works. Well, because of tennis, we will learn new, new language. And the other two fall in love with each other on this tournament.

DG:   Oh. Wonderful. Oh my God that’s gorgeous.

KC:   And they are still together.

(laughter)

Really tournaments can change your life.

DG:   Karolina did they played doubles together and fall in love?

KC:   Yeah, no they didn’t play them back then. They weren’t playing double.

DG:   Are they playing doubles now and still together?

KC:   Yeah.

(laughter)

KC:   Exactly.

(laughter)

DG:   Far out  I think I look, I admire any couples who play doubles together and are still couples. Let me tell you now.

KC:   Yeah, it’s very rare.

It’s not easy. Most couples are not playing together because they prefer to have a relationship.

DG:   I mean.

Let me tell you. Well, my, my now ex couple and I, we never played doubles together, but we lasted a very long time. And I think part of it is because we didn’t play doubles together. So…

(laughter)

So this is this, look, look, maybe people should. We should play doubles together to see what kind of couple they would be. I don’t know, maybe we’re on to something here.

KC:   Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can.

Compare playing doubles with somebody, like, kind of speed dating.

DG:   Exactly.  Oh, my God, I really.

KC:   …see the character of the person…

DG:   Oh, my. So true. I think you’ve invented a new type of tournament.

KC:   Yeah.

(laughter)

DG:   I love it, I love it.

Let’s come back to, you know, getting more LGBTQ, particularly lesbians involved in tennis and wondering whether, the Polish National Tennis Organization has helped you with that?

KC:   Unfortunately not. As for today, they I just don’t have enough money to support us financially. To be frank, generally, if I don’t have, much money to support amateur sport, amateur tennis in Poland. But it’s their mission, official mission, to support also amateur tennis. So, we believe that even if we just get from them some official recognition and appreciation, for what we are doing for tennis, that would be also nice and useful for us.

It could help us in getting sponsors. So we will, yeah, focus on that and try to to get this official support from, you know, financial one? But yeah.

DG:   I absolutely understand that. And yeah, I mean, even a, a statement of support is so powerful from formal organizations, there’s no doubt about that. I mean, certainly in Australia, you know, Tennis Australia has been supportive of LGBTQ tennis, particularly with the Australian Open with, you know, we have a Pride Day, which always brings a tear to my eye, you know, to see, you know, progress flags, pride flags at the Australian Open.

I just cannot believe it. Yeah, it’s really incredible.

KC:   I know I cannot believe that on other Grand Slams we don’t have such events. Only Australia and the US open.

DG:   Yeah, right.

KC:   Like you are the best ones.

DG:   Yeah I mean amazingly Australia has led the way on that. And yeah I mean I would like to see Wimbledon. I think, I think in the lead up tournaments is a bit more of a, you know, say a few rainbow, sweatbands and shoe laces and yeah, you know, the ball kids are wearing, you know, some rainbow stuff, which is great.

Yeah. Roland Garros like, could do a bit better. They could do better.

KC:    Yeah. Especially that director is.

DG:    Well. Amelie Mauresmo, I mean, hello.

Yeah.

KC:    Hello Amelie!

(laughter)

DG:   Exactly. I think, I think it goes a couple of years ago, right. There was one day that they changed the socials, icon to be rainbow colours, but they didn’t make a big deal of it. It was very subtle. So you know, look, baby steps. But we’re patient. Well, you know, let’s say the Olympics really flew the flag. Unofficially. Officially. So anyway, that’s something, right?

So now we’re going to ask you some personal questions around tennis. Why do you love tennis?

KC:   I love it so much because there is so much more than pure technique and physicality to be a good tennis player. This game is so much about, being mentally strong and tactically smart, and that’s why it’s possible to have even matches, regardless of age or gender or money spent on professional tennis coaching and of course, being well trained, coached, being muscular and fit and younger will only help you to run after the ball and hit it in the most efficient way. But but still mental and intelligence part is so important in tennis now that you can make up, for, if you have, not so physically strong or not well trained. And besides, all this running after a ball and with your friends, keeps you healthy.

And it keeps you healthy on every level. You will get stronger body and also stronger mentality. And you have social connections in some instances, we can meet the love of our life.

What is also important?

(laughter)

DG:   Very true. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s always a good start. I’m a big fan of meeting the love of your life at any sport. Doesn’t have to be tennis, but any sport, you know, healthier way than at bars. So, yeah. (laughter) And what have you learned from playing tennis?

KC:    Well, it taught me a lot of very useful things that I use in life because it teaches you how to deal with your ego. When you lose or you win.

How to, reduce stress if you need to keep your head cool and your hand steady. How to be humble and to learn from mistakes and keep going and don’t give up. It teaches you how to, communicate on court and generally with different people, especially in doubles, you can experience that some words are super motivating for some of us and the same, for other absolutely not. Like for me, the words and I think our enjoy our tennis but for others, no normal enjoyment just focus and play. Now you win so many different methods motivating people and. Yeah, and to learn how many perspective there are, how we are, diverse. Yeah, yeah. And for example, on my fridge, I have a magnet with, Federer and it says “I never lose. Either I win or I learn”.

DG:    That’s a great approach, isn’t.

KC:   Everywhere. Yeah.

DG:   Yeah. What I’ve learned I late in life is with tennis. It’s like you lose more than you win. Even at the great matches. They win probably 51% of the points that they play. So you constantly having to deal with the fact that you lose like you lose the point, but you still have to keep playing. But you can still win.

That’s the amazing thing about tennis.

KC:   Exactly.

DG:  And who’s your favourite player?

KC:   My number one is the player from the past, past is Billie Jean King. And it’s because, not only she was a champion on the card, but she was also a great activist. And she changed woman tennis so that tennis could become a profession for girls and, they can earn money from playing tennis. And I think on every tournament, you can hear tennis players are thanking Billie Jean for that, what she has done.

And nowadays I also have some favourite players. Can’t name only one. I can start, of course, with Iga Swiatek the number one from Poland now a number two, (laughter)  because, of her historic historical successes as a Polish player. (Yes.) She’s the best in Polish history. She’s a role model for lots of Polish kids. But also, I love Arena Sabalenka how she’s playing because she has so powerful, beautiful tennis.

And Karolina Muchová, Muchová, from Czechia because she is so versatile some says she’s like Federer. I love her play. Yeah. That’s why I love also Coco (Gauff), because she’s so, involved in social and political issues. The same as Iga Światek. I love them for for that.

DG:   Yes.

KC:   For something. Yeah. Besides tennis and making people aware of political issues and social.

DG:   Yeah. Wonderful. To wrap up this interview is there anything else that you would like to talk about?

KC:   I think, that, generally, I am focusing on getting more women players and sponsors and solidarity funds. I’m working here closely with tournament director of Summer Vibes Poznan [name] we call him Gigi for short.  And, we will try to reach out to maybe also Billie Jean King Foundation. Maybe we will try to get a reach to Martina Navratilova. They are Rainbow Players. Maybe they know some ways of how to get, fund sponsor groups for our GLTA tour, because it’s the only one in the world for rainbow players so why not to support it? And I think it’s, grow. Yeah. And so what can I say? If you are interested in joining, please get in touch with me, with our social media.

DG:   Okay.

Can you tell us what the, the social media handles are that people can learn more about, about what you’re trying to do and certainly, you know, playing in the GTA tournaments or the Polish tournaments.

KC:   Yeah. So in Poland, probably the best is, our social media. So Facebook and Instagram of, our, local GLTA, let’s say it’s, Gaybledon Championship Tour. That’s the name. Okay. Our local Polish league, it’s like GLTA but for Poland and yeah, we are on Facebook and Instagram. Also you can, contact me. I’m also on Facebook and Instagram under my name Karolina Czyż. And we have Facebook group named “morewomen@GLTAtournaments”. I’m one of the admin of this group. And we have all the information, you might need to know to find us there in social media.

DG:   Wonderful. Karolina Czyż thank you so much for joining us on Hit Me Up on Joy 94.9. And I hope one day I will be meeting you on a tennis court.

KC:   Yes, please. Thank you very much for inviting me. Yeah. And helping to spread the news.

DG:   Wonderful. Thank you so much.

END OF INTERVIEW

These are the tournaments Karolina refers to:

2023 June – Poznan, Poland – Summer Vibes

2023 July – Bern, Switzerland – Eurogames

2023 August – Katowice, Poland – Silesia Rainbow Cup Extraordinaire (SeRCE / heart)

2024 January – Amstelveen, Netherlands – 2 nd Dutch Lesbian Open

2024 February – Maspalomas, Spain – Women Sunshine Open Gran Canaria

2024 May – Amsterdam, Netherlands – Pinkster

2024 June – Poznan, Poland – Summer Vibes

2024 July – Vienna, Austria – Eurogames

2024 August – London, UK – The Crown

2024 August – Zurich, Switzerland – Zurich Rainbow Open

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Socials: @prideintennis

FULL TRANSCRIPT

General: (Over fast paced dance music with a strong beat) Anyone for tennis? You’re listening to Hit Me Up with Demetra Giannakopoulos on Joy 94.9.

Host Demetra Giannakopoulos (DG): Our guest today is Ian Pearson-Brown, who is the founder and currently the Clubs and Venues Network officer for Pride in Tennis, which promotes LGBTQ plus participation in British tennis and is the 2024 winner of the LTA President’s Award for Outstanding Achievement and Innovation in Diversity and Inclusion. Ian, welcome to Hit Me Up.

IPB: Good morning.

DG: Now you’re good morning because you’re calling from London. Is that correct?

IPB: Close enough. I’m from Newcastle which is in the north of the UK. So yes, I’m aware it’s evening for you at the moment over there isn’t it?

DG: It is indeed. Please tell us about Pride in Tennis.

IPB: So, I’ve worked, in tennis as a tennis coach for, my most of my adult life. I was, a very sport smart kid. Loves my football with my tennis, and I was I realized when I was 13 that I was gay. I had huge issues with that. I found it very difficult to get into my head that I didn’t believe you could play sport and be gay, for a multitude of reasons. Partly the lack of role models, partly the internal barriers inside my head because I felt I had to choose between the two.

I developed a lot of mental health problems, including, depression, anxiety. It led on to some attempts to take my own life, and it also linked to the fact that I couldn’t accept that I was gay because I was heavily into sport. So if I had to choose between the two, I chose sport. I threw myself into a career as a tennis coach.

I was, 30 when I finally came out in the sports space. When I did come out, all of the things that I thought might go wrong, I thought parents might take the kids away from my coaching sessions. I thought my teammates might stop talking to me. None of those things happened of course. And then I realized that tennis is not a homophobic sport.

However, we never seem to talk about this subject. We never seem to talk about the lack of representation in, tennis, but particularly in men’s tennis, for LGBTQ plus people. I wanted to do something, as a volunteer to be able to change the narrative, namely to make sure that no young LGBT person would go through the experiences that I went through as a young queer athlete.

So I approached the LTA about ten years ago, and I’m going to be kind to them and say they were not ready for the conversation (laughter). So I did a bit of voluntary work in football instead, in soccer. I’m a dedicated Newcastle United fan and helped to found the LGBT fans group United with Pride. And I became a United as One ambassador for the club, and still work as a diversity and inclusion consultant for the club, which of course, is a major Premier League club.

And I learned a lot about, LGBTQ plus inclusion in sport. And I took that experience back to tennis at a time more recently, when the LTA were ready for that conversation, and we launched together Pride in Tennis out of the LTA National Tennis Centre in February 2022. I’ve been doing a lot of prep work for it. From there it just exploded. So tennis in the UK was a long way behind this conversation compared to other sports. And I would say in the last two and a half years, we’ve really pushed ahead as an industry leader. Now we’ve got regular visibility days in most major events, as during the grass court season, like Queens ad Eastbourne, we went something called Friday Pride Day.

We do the same when we host a Davis Cup or a Billie-Jean King Cup event. So we’ve done that, wheelchair National championships as well. So on a Friday Pride Day, we get a lot of visibility going, a lot of conversation around the subject. LGBTQ plus people in tennis. And, we also launched something, which we believe is quite groundbreaking, called the Rally Allies Training program, which gives all grassroots tennis venues access to, free LGBTQ plus awareness training, and also free resources pack, which allows their venue to then do some activation around the topic. And brings us to where we are today.

DG: Yeah, I mean, that’s a lot of initiatives that Pride in Tennis is undertaking that you have helped to found. Can I come back to the Friday Pride Day? Can you describe what that is and what happens on that day? Because it’s part of significant lead up tournaments to Wimbledon.

IPB: Every Friday of major events. We make sure that everybody who’s attending knows it’s Friday Pride Day. So we encourage them to wear bright colours or do a rainbow themed dress when they when they come and people do it. It’s it’s wonderful to see how many people in the crowd to actually, notice that and engage in that. Pride in Tennis would usually have a stall of some description where we’ll be able to give out information, but also, give out rainbow laces, rainbow sweatbands, we sell them, to raise money for the LTA’s Charitable Foundation.

We do some on court activity as well. We’ve got that progress flag flying above every, sort of centre court. We do a bit of media on court, we do a coin toss, we talk about the theme of the day and why it’s important. Some of the, the ball kids will wear the rainbow sweatbands as well. Hoardings around the site will have a rainbow theme to them to use the umpire’s chair sponsor will get involved. So there’s something visible on camera and, we’ll get some media coverage around that as well. So there’s, there’s quite a few different things going on during the day, both in terms of interacting with the crowd, but also, getting the, the exposure for the rainbow colours to a national audience.

DG: Wonderful. And you mentioned Rally Allies-Rally alleys (laughter)

IPB: That’s a tough one. Yeah, I know with the name…

DG: (laughter) I love it. But how does that work? Because it does sound like an amazing initiative.

IPB: So it’s a in its current form we do live sort of zoom workshops where any tennis volunteer, any coach, any official, anyone who helps to run grassroots tennis, at any level, whether it be a small club or a park court or whether it’s like a major national centre, anyone who’s involved in that can come on to the, the workshop, get some some basic ideas on why LGBTQ plus visibility is important. We talk about inclusive language. We talk about how to deal with homophobia, biphobia, and transphobia. We talk about what the barriers are. In tennis, which at times can be quite subtle but doesn’t make them any less impactful. And we talk about, the simple solutions to the complex issues. So for example, I know you asked me what my pronouns were before, which are he/him, I talk about, you know, people who are willing to put their pronouns at the end of their email signature in the social media bios, and it doesn’t do any harm.

It doesn’t make any difference to the first hundred people who you email. However, that 101st person who happens to be questioning their gender identity will find it much more comfortable to deal with you. If they’ve seen that you’re willing to share your pronouns with them. And that’s what an ally is. It’s just somebody who’s willing to, show outwardly their support of as the LGBTQ plus community.

And then you could immediately feel more comfortable when you’re dealing with them in that official capacity. And we apply those, principles to grassroots tennis. And, we’ve had around 140 grassroots venues so far, with representatives coming through the program at all of those venues, then receive a resources pack. And that includes something, some things to address the venue.

So that includes a rainbow flag, some rainbow bunting and a charter for the notice board with the inclusive values and rules. Something that the professionals of the club can wear, whether that be the team captain or, the coach or the receptionist at the staff at the entrance to the place. There’s things like rainbow sweatbands, or rainbow places and things.

If they want to do an event where they can have giveaways, we’ve got stickers and we’ve, we’ve actually managed to make a rainbow, dampener, shock absorber for racquets, which, believe it or not, don’t currently exist and you can’t buy them on the internet. We have to make bespoke so give all the, think of all the different types of shock absorbers, of dampers in the world.

You’ve got so many different types and colours and shapes and sizes, and nobody has ever thought to make a rainbow one before.

DG: I’m surprised by that.

IPB: Yeah, we’ve got something that money can’t buy. So. Yeah. Quite proud of that one. (laughter). So, Yeah, it’s, like I say, they all get the packs and then they’ll do some activation on the back of it, whether that be a rainbow tournament to celebrate their existing LGBTQ plus members.

They’re all dressed up in different colours, or whether that be doing an open day, which target markets people from their local pride or their local LGBT social group.

DG: Can I come back to you talking about you first became involved with Newcastle United Pride supporter group and then you approached the LTA. I’m quite surprised that a team sport would be ahead of tennis for some reason. I can’t even explain to you why. Why was a team sport, ahead of a sport such as tennis that has had prominent LGBT or particular lesbian, tennis players for a long part of its history?

IPB: Yes. So it’s a fairly simple answer that one. There is are a lot more problems with homophobia in football. It’s the locker room mentality, fans. Instead, gyms, tend to do homophobic chanting because it’s, a very sort of, tribal atmosphere quite often. So, they can, you know, shout things at the referee or the players or at the opposition fans that could be, teams, homophobic and, so, so football culturally, historically has a problem with LGBTQ plus inclusion and representation. That’s highlighted in Australia by, Josh Cavallo, who came out. And then obviously this received some levels of of homophobic abuse for doing so. Despite the fact that, you know, largely he’s been he’s been well accepted. So there was there was large problems in football. So football was on a first basis in which the, rainbow laces campaign existed. There was active work being done, campaigns being done to try and reduce, homophobia in a similar way that, there was lots of campaigns to actively, reduce racism in the game, which unfortunately still rears its ugly head now and again.

So there was a lot of activation going on. Also, football in the UK is huge. It’s easily the biggest sport, has easily the most money involved with it. And obviously the Premier League is one of the biggest leagues in the world. So therefore they have a large you know, every club has a lot of staff and there was they could afford to have diversity and inclusion offices.

That’s what of another reason why football was it’s got the infrastructure to be able to to do that tennis of course is you know, if you if you think of the crowds of Wimbledon, the very different to a, you know, sort of raging soccer fans screaming at each other. So it’s, it’s much more respectful so you don’t get the chanting that can be discriminatory in tennis.

With tennis, it’s different because it’s just an area that’s never talked about. It’s almost like a taboo subject at times, with the exception of obviously, Billie-Jean King in Martina Navratilova being those, those pioneers, of LGBTQ plus representation, but of course, in the history of the game, there’s never been a male player come out whilst compete.

DG: The genteelness of tennis may have created an atmosphere of suppressed homophobia.

IPB: Yes. To an extent, I think it’s just the barriers in tennis are a lot more subtle. Yeah. I will say they are reduced as well. So in the UK, certainly tennis is a very queer friendly sport overall. When we’ve looked at the demographics of tennis players in the UK, LGBTQ plus people are overrepresented compared to the general population, which is one of the few sports which it is.

However, we still do have issues. We have a lack of representation in coaches, in volunteers and in, of course, professional players as well. So there’s under-representations there. But in terms of, playing tennis, LGBTQ people do like those individual sports or social sports. That’s a good thing because one of the reasons why LGBTQ plus representation is important is we have a number of health inequalities in the UK when it comes to people who, are queer.

If you are LGBTQ plus in the UK, you are less likely to be physically active and you are significantly more likely to have a long term mental health problem. So getting access to sport is really important from those two perspectives. But of course, it’s also a space where you’re more likely to discriminate against and if you’re heterosexual. So for those reasons, we need to make sure we are still, working at that until those health inequalities are, redressed and reduced.

DG: I mean, I’m a big, big advocate for sport, not just from the physical point of view, but community and connecting. And that’s one of the things this show about Hit Me Up is about is really celebrating the community of tennis in particular. But you know, translates to all sports. I want to come back to the Pride Day initiative.

It’s great that there are organizations and tournaments that do that. Are there any other initiatives that are undertaken to address any underlying discrimination that may exist, or barriers that might exist to welcoming the LGBT community to sport and to make an environment feel safe? For example, for the elite players the male players.

IPB: Players, we will, leave rainbow laces for the players to wear if they wish to. And some do, some don’t. Usually they’ll put them on their bag rather than wear them as laces because that obviously professional players are quite fussy, understandably, about what they wear. And you know, so that when they’re competing. So, we don’t expect players necessary to wear, you know, one of our rainbow sweatbands or something like that.

As it happens, we have had some players do that. I’ll see Alfie Hewett and Gordon Reid, the wheelchair pro players. I’ve seen multi Grand Slam winning players. They wore them in their finals. For the the national wheelchair finals last year, which is fantastic representation as allies. Liam Broady wore rainbow laces during the Australian Open of course, when he played Nick Kyrigos in the night match in 2022 as well.

And he is he’s done media and and this we released videos of him talking about him as an ally because particularly in men’s tennis, it’s important we do that because there is already representation in women’s tennis. Although I will say there’s still under representation of women’s tennis is a myth that, oh, if you’re a, successful talent female tennis player (DG laughter), somehow that makes you automatically a lesbian.

It obviously it does. And in fact, I think we’ve only got to maybe three in the top 100 at the moment who are out and, that’s, that’s, you know, if we take LGBTQ, plus representation is around somewhere between 7 and 10% of the population, then obviously that’s still an underrepresentation currently. So, you know, we’ve had some fantastic invisible pioneers, but I wouldn’t say we were overrepresented in the women’s game.

So there is still active and of course, LGBTQ plus women still have their own issues and barriers. Obviously Dasha Kasatkina as a as a Russian born player, she has her own challenges, you know, although she seems to be dealing with them exceptionally well. I have to say.

DG: Yes. Absolute, very brave and courageous, given Russia’s very anti-LGBTQ stance. It’s a very brave person. Let’s come back to your, it sounds like almost lifelong enjoyment of tennis. What do you think tennis has taught you?

IPB: Tennis was my safe space for a long time. It was my bubble. It was the thing which kept me alive. So, I played from age nine. I was a coach from age 16 and a volunteer committee member for eight from aged 18, all at the same venue. This venue, I still do those three things, down the road from me.

When I was going through my mental health challenges, as a teenager, as a young adult, tennis or coaching, either of them, playing or coaching, they were the places where I was able to get a mental health release. I was able to escape my problems, my challenges. I felt, yeah. So I don’t underestimate how much tennis really saved my life from the dark times.

And I understand, more than most, how important access to sport is for people who have mental health issues and certainly issues around questioning the sexuality and gender identity, it’s important that they get access to fresh air and exercise. You know, the stats around mental health problems for LGBTQ people in the UK is shocking. You know, if you’re a gay man, is seven times more likely to want to take your own life than a heterosexual man.

If you’re a, a queer youth, you are still seven times more likely to have suicidal thoughts than, if you are a heterosexual youth. If you’re a transgender person, you are 1 in 3 will make multiple attempts on taking their own lives. This year. It’s shocking. And I say that I always say that, you know, all of the work that I’ve done thus far, I want to do in the future, if it saves one young queer person’s life from, you know, from wanting to take their own life by just making them be able to feel more comfortable in their own skin, in the environment that they exist in with me, then it’s absolutely worth doing.

DG: It’s quite devastating. These statistics are, they are and these people are suffering. I wonder whether tennis or any sport that has a wonderfully inclusive approach contact organizations who may be, you know, first responders to, people who are considering suicide or have, you know, severe mental health issues, not even severe mental health issues, just wanting to find a community and come and, come and play tennis.

I love I love my team, I love my club, I love the people I play with. And the fact that, you know, being out really makes a difference.

IPB: But we have, we have, spaces in the UK. We call them a stepping stone clubs. So we obviously have around 140, I think I said, at Rally Allies venues, but we also have about 20 LGBTQ plus safe spaces. So these are kind of clubs or sessions that are run by LGBTQ plus people for LGBTQ plus people and, straight allies to come to.

And they are specifically marketed as LGBTQ plus friendly. So, for example, we have the ones in Cardiff called the Cardiff Baseliners, as we have ones in Newcastle, my home town called the Geordie Grand Slammers. We have several in London, including the South London Smashers. And I’m going to mention them specifically because, they’re founder, told us when we launched a the tale of when we launched this space and started doing work in that space that, one point to, someone who was transgender came up and said, you know, if I didn’t if you hadn’t made this space for me, I don’t think I’d be here, because I was really having a lot of mental health problems and tennis’s really helped the safe space you’ve created and been able to connect with other queer people. That’s really helped. So that that’s a really powerful message, to show. And I know for a fact that there are many queer people who will attend these sessions and, you know, drive 30 miles past a local tennis club to come into those inclusive sessions and made me do an additional to the regular tennis sessions.

But the reason we call them stepping stones is because for some people, it’s reintroducing them to sport after they’ve had bad experiences, either as kids in school, you know, in that school PE, which is a very difficult space when you’re LGBT Plus, at times. These people who may have been switched off to sport where helping them switch them back on, we get them involved, we get them, you know, we give them a little bit of coaching, a little bit of help, a little bit of social tennis.

They get involved and hopefully they then have a bit more confidence to go into their own local tennis club as a mainstream club and be able to exist as their authentic selves in that space in the same way. So that’s why the stepping stone groups, we don’t expect them to stay forever. We hope they sort of fly the nest.

And, and that’s the, the function that those clubs perform. And like I say, we’re trying to grow network in the UK all the time. We want to see one of those in every major city in the UK. I believe they have, similar things going on in Australia as well.

DG: Oh, fantastic. I need to check that out because I’m not familiar with the ones in Australia. I need to track them down.

IPB: I think that I know that the GLTA here, the International Tennis organization – the Gay Lesbian Tennis Alliance is does a lot of work, in, in Australia. They that host several, sort of major, international, queer tennis events, including the Glam Slam in Australia. Yes. That right.

DG: Yes. Yes, that’s absolutely correct during the Australian Open and in fact, I think the finals are within Melbourne Park grounds during the second week of the Australian Open, which is extraordinary. And similarly, fly the progress flag and, massive celebration of the LGBTQ plus community. So it’s very, very visible. It’s a wonderful initiative. And, you know, as a lifelong tennis fan, I know that I feel my heart skips a beat, when I see the progress flag at that at the Australian Open.

You know, you, on the one hand, you, you know, you don’t seek validation outside of yourself, but it’s nice to be included. You know, I think that’s so important for us.

IPB: Well, my journey has gone full circle, where I was desperately trying to hide my sexuality and to the point that, you know, lying about having a girlfriend and, you know, joining in with homophobic chants when I was a kid towards the opposition because I wanted to fit in. I felt obviously at that in football. I felt, you know, I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t, you know, accidentally revealing myself, thinking I’m the only gay person in the stadium of 50,000 people, you know?

So going from that to talking on court during a Davis Cup with Stan Wawrinka one one side and Andy Murray on the other around queer visibility and, you know, dressed just with a, sort of rainbow cap on and, and, Pride in Tennis, t shirt. It’s, you know, a major stadium which had about 5000 people in it.

That’s quite a change from how I was when I was a younger person. And of course, my mental health as an older person is much better now. I was always I became a much better tennis coach when I, when I came out, you know, I was a much better coach in my 30s than I was in my 20s, because I was able to get that monkey off my back, help my, my mental health.

And, you know, I’m a typical example of as every queer athlete who ever, ever come out, they’ve always done better when they’ve performed as their authentic selves. So if we want queer tennis coaches, volunteers, professional players, whatever level the game play, if you want to play your best, you’ve got to be you’ve got to do it as your authentic self, and we’ve got to make sure we’re making the environment right to allow people to be able to do that, because unfortunately, it’s still not the case at the moment.

Otherwise we’d have male role models who are LGBTQ Plus, it’s not just tennis, though. There’s never been a golfer. There’s never been a cricketer, there’s never been a, there’s been one rugby person. There’s there’s been a handful of footballers. There are more queer people who are openly gay in countries where it is illegal to be gay than there is in the modern sporting Western world of men’s sport.

It’s bizarre that in 2024, this is still the case.

DG: I think that the organisations it’s up to the organisations to make a safe space for their LGBT players. I mean, similarly, now in Australia, one of the preeminent sports is Australian rules football. There’s not one gay player. You know, we I’m sure they exist.

Ian who is your favorite tennis player and what are your favourite tennis player?

IPB: Well, I’m British, so, it for me, it has to be Andy Murray. I loved, watching his career. I admire his tenacity so much. I was as a young player myself, I was obviously quite an angry individual. (laughter) So I had this habit of sort of barking out loud and throwing away my anger, but I was using it as a sort of like a mental skill to help me play my game.

I always played better when I was kind of fired up and angry, even though kind of it was not socially acceptable within my own amateur level club. So when watching Andy Murray do it and actually really thriving by, you know, shouting at his box and such, I just connected with him so much in terms of what I like to do with, you know, I couldn’t do the Roger Federer thing of just staying composed the whole time, but I’ll tell whether I’m winning or losing (laughter).

I wear my heart on my sleeve. I’m very passionate tennis player. So to see him do what he does, you know, do to the edge, he’s done it. And you know, the fact that he had last year without hip surgery and still competing with a metal hip into his late 30s, is just a testament to the competitor that he is.

I’ve always told, says, obviously British people, we can’t be competitive for too reserved for that. You know, I was I was shunned as a player because I was too competitive. And I’m like, how can you be too competitive? It’s such a British thing to say. No other country is like this, you know, it’s, it’s all got to be social tennis.

No, I’ve taken this sport to compete and to win. (laughter) Andy Murray completely embodies, it’s it’s probably an English thing that we don’t do that and elsewhere is, the Scots do seem to do it much better.

DG: Well, Andy Murray also amazing. Of course. And certainly his support for women and is well known a legend for correcting journalists, forgetting about women’s tennis. So.

IPB: Oh, we did an interview once for a prominent LGBTQ plus magazine. So he’s a he’s an ally to the community as well. You know, he talked openly about, you know, they ask him daft questions, like, if you were gay, who would you who would you fancy on the tour? And, and of course, he said Feliciano Lopez was immediate the answer. So, yeah, he talks about wanting to be, you know, Feliciano, his husband and such, like. So he’s he’s very comfortable and he’s very has very progressive values, which is fantastic, particularly as a father of three kids. It’s good to see in a, in a, in a male sports role model that he holds those values.

And that’s really helps. And of course he had Amelie Mauresmo as an openly, lesbian coach and one of the first men to have a woman, a female, coach him, whilst he was a professional player. So that’s great as well. And of course I wish him well on his new journey as a coach.

Just announced that he’s going to support Djokovic at the Australian Open.

DG: Oh, that’ll be interesting.

IPB: He’s going to be in Djokovic’s box in his corner as his coach. So, yeah, that’ll be very interesting.

DG: You give me a scoop there. I wasn’t aware that that was happening. But that’s going to be fascinating. We’ll wrap up the conversation. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about?

IPB: Just to say that, shout out to, Rowen D’Souza, who is, somebody who’s, a role model to me, somebody who’s inspires me to do what he has done to bring things like the Grand Slam to Australia. He’s somebody who mentored me in my early days of my needs to be patient with the governing bodies.

It takes a long time to change cultures within sport. And, he’s managed to do that in Australia brilliantly. You know, and I know part of it is because of the controversy surrounding, Margaret Court and the fact that, you know, she, she had very Christian values and, you know, whether the stadium should still be named after and such striking.

Of course, he’s managed to use that to make sure he gets everything you can out of Tennis Australia, so that they do lots and lots of work to positively promote LGBTQ plus inclusion and, Australia, absolutely lapping it up. And I love to see the Glam Slam, the over the top representation, all the drag queens, and and such like, and the rainbows.

And we don’t quite do it that way in the UK, unfortunately. We’ve, you know, we’ve managed to rainbow fans for the crowd and that’s about it. So we, we don’t head over to it. Of course the big you know, we still need to crack is Wimbledon the only, Grand Slam who hasn’t done a pride themed day yet, however.

But they have been doing a lot of, behind the scenes work. So they’ve been doing a lot of educational training. I’ve been talk. I’ve been doing some delivering to staff. So I’m hopeful that we see something, alongside the traditional colours of Wimbledon, of purple and green, that we see some sort of rainbow representation before too long.

DG: Here’s to that.

Ian, thank you very much for joining us on Hit Me Up on Joy 94.9.

The post Ian Pearson-Brown founder of Pride in Tennis talks inclusion of LGBTQ+ in British Tennis (with full transcript) appeared first on Hit Me Up.